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The Limmud Sugia Social Beit Midrash

Who needs the Seder? | עמוד דיון

תקציר

Who needs the Seder?

The urgent need of Pesach in our Jewish and Global era

Maggid – Retelling the Passover Story

Maggid – Retelling the Passover Story

This is the bread of poverty
that our fathers ate in the land of Egypt.
Whoever is hungry, let him come and eat;
whoever is in need, let him come and participate
This year free people.
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Even if all of us are wise

Even if all of us are wise

Even if all of us were wise,
all of us understanding,
all of us knowing the Torah,
we are still obligated to discuss
our exodus from Egypt;
and the  more you  discusses the story
the more you are praised…
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Need Information about Sugia?

Need Information about Sugia?

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סיכום ביניים

This Evening
(Sunday the 1'st of May)

At 8 pm (BST)

A video Webinar!

 

We will meet to discuss and recapitulate
the questions and sources
in this Discussion page.

 

To participate in the meeting

Go to this link
meeting ID 813 791 747

 

We recommend you watch
 this video recording
of our last Webinar (Sunday 24.4)

Here are the sources for both  webinars

הדיון המורחב

x

Pesach is clearly the most family oriented holiday in the Jewish calendar.

This element of the Seder is also engraved in the Halacha .

On the other hand, Pesach is notorious for its Jewish and universal  is message of freedom.
see for example a this  captivating dialogue  between Senator Joseph Lieberman
and  Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks .

The puzzling question is  how does the family orientation correlate
with the strong universal  message of freedom?

 

Freedom or Family?

Freedom or Family?

6 תגובות
  • x

    The last day of freedom is the day you marry!

    Now seriously ; Family is a situation that your Freedom  gets limited.

    You might think that raising a family is the best thing you can do

    but Freedom !?

  • x

    I think freedom is in a way, a heavy burden, especially on modern man. To have so many choices is in a way, a chaotic thing.

    In that sense, I am not sure Pesach is a Chag celebrating a present we get. The moment the Jews left Egypt, was the moment they stepped out of the circle of duty into the circle of choices. It’s the moment they became responsible. Out they went from the circle of victimhood into making their own way in the desert.

    The idea of freedom that is detached from family life is mind boggling to me. It is the scariest notion I can think of. It is loneliness and mistakes you can't recover from, having no one to fall back too.  But the idea of family life without freedom in it is also scary too me. It is a prison cell of love, a warm and stifling hug.

     

    Maybe Pesach is the tension between these two needs: freedom and belonging. I myself, as an individualistic person, am more worried about the dangers of freedom…

    עקיבא רגן

  • x

    I think you are over anxious about the dangers of freedom.

    Of course you should be careful not to hurt other people's freedom

    but beside that I think that freedom is the ultimate value , above most others

    Contradict

    רותם צור

  • x

    Well, I would say that freedom is nice up to a certain point. If you are a slave for instance, better to be free. But absolute freedom means nothing in my eyes. You can be free as a balloon and very lonely, sitting on your mountain top. How can that be the ultimate value?

    Like Levi suggested, I think marriage or any other relationship is counter freedom. I personally think love happens when people commit. Commitment is the basis for relationship, not freedom. At least in my eyes.

    all the best,

    akiva

     

    עקיבא רגן

  • x
    Peninnah Rachel Weissman
    From a theological perspective
    we are committed to and slaves of the Lord only
    –enslavement to any other is tyranny injustice false etc
    and must be cast off
    –Shulchan Aruch:
    Eved Hashem, sheh Hashem ba lev livadoe chofshee.
    Commitment does not necessarily impede freedom..It is personal and subjective. I don't feel my freedom is lost through my commitment. In contrast, my freedom is enhanced and increased as a result of my commitments as a Jew, as a scientist as a wife etc.

    Peninnah Rachel

  • x

    Well I agree that slavery is bad from a theological point of view, but from a human point of view we are all very much bound. Passion, is a form of slavery. Love is slavery. You may commit to take care of your lawn as a master, but you don't fall in love as a master. You don't become a parent as a master. You don't become a husband or a wife as a master.

    And when you say you can be a slave 'only to god'- well, who is this god? Is he some Amorphic master in the sky? Or is he the same thing that makes you want to be a scientist? A wife? Isn't god part of that? In other words- If you are a slave to god- aren't you a slave to your own life as well? For god is the depth of it, isn't he?

    So I believe that getting out of Egypt wasn't the end of slavery for anybody really. It was just the beginning of deeper form of slavery, a more passionate and truthful one.

     

    עקיבא רגן

x

I once saw a fascinating Ted talk
that claims that in our generation we are
less free because we are more free: ,

Our overwhelming almost infinite freedom of choice.
has made us not freer but more paralyzed,

אורי שכטר

תגובה אחת
  • x

    Wow! That is an amazing video. Thanx a lot.

    Free Choice is mayhem in my eyes.  Slavery was and always will be the Automatic response of human beings wanting to shield themselves from chaotic life. I think the bible knew this, and thus warns the begging slave: "But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man,' then his master shall.… pierce his ear with an awl'. The bible knows the powerful connection between love and slavery: love, lust and passion, have a lot to do with each other. They are the same.

    Therefore, if freedom can't be held back by some sort of slavery, in my eyes it becomes a punishment.  I think men know this better than women do, for a man without disciplined will soon degenerate into a biological loveless sex addict, wanting to spread his biological heritage to all women like a cat. Women on the other hand, are held back from freedom naturally by the full length of pregnancy which makes promiscuous behavior pointless from an evolutionary perspective.

     

    Finally, I will add that  anybody coming out of Egypt thinking he was on a ride towards freedom soon got a waking call by god, most strong and vengeful, giving him the ten commandments to make his head straight.

     

     

     

    עקיבא רגן

x

This coming Sunday a 6pm (EST) we will meet to discuss and recapitulate the questions and sources that are presented in this page.

To participate go to this link meeting ID 813 791 747

 

We also recommend to watch here The Last Webinar – "Who need the Seder" ?
which launched our learning

 

The webinar-This  Sunday!

The webinar-This  Sunday!

x

As we are getting near to the end of Pesach ( and our summing webinar Sunday night)

we would love you to go to our sources page

and see if one of them inspires you and trigger thoughts that  you could share  with us.

אודי ליאון

תגובות אחרונות

user profile image
אודי ליאון
28.04.2016 7:50
As we are getting near to the end of Pesach ( and our summing webinar Sunday night)

we would love you to go to our sources page

and see if one of them inspires you and trigger thoughts that  you could share  with us.

user profile image
עקיבא רגן
27.04.2016 5:28

Wow! That is an amazing video. Thanx a lot.

Free Choice is mayhem in my eyes.  Slavery was and always will be the Automatic response of human beings wanting to shield themselves from chaotic life. I think the bible knew this, and thus warns the begging slave: "But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man,' then his master shall.… pierce his ear with an awl'. The bible knows the powerful connection between love and slavery: love, lust and passion, have a lot to do with each other. They are the same.

Therefore, if freedom can't be held back by some sort of slavery, in my eyes it becomes a punishment.  I think men know this better than women do, for a man without disciplined will soon degenerate into a biological loveless sex addict, wanting to spread his biological heritage to all women like a cat. Women on the other hand, are held back from freedom naturally by the full length of pregnancy which makes promiscuous behavior pointless from an evolutionary perspective.

 

Finally, I will add that  anybody coming out of Egypt thinking he was on a ride towards freedom soon got a waking call by god, most strong and vengeful, giving him the ten commandments to make his head straight.

 

 

 

user profile image
אורי שכטר
27.04.2016 4:36
I once saw a fascinating Ted talk
that claims that in our generation we are
less free because we are more free: ,

Our overwhelming almost infinite freedom of choice.
has made us not freer but more paralyzed,

user profile image
עקיבא רגן
26.04.2016 9:13

Well I agree that slavery is bad from a theological point of view, but from a human point of view we are all very much bound. Passion, is a form of slavery. Love is slavery. You may commit to take care of your lawn as a master, but you don't fall in love as a master. You don't become a parent as a master. You don't become a husband or a wife as a master.

And when you say you can be a slave 'only to god'- well, who is this god? Is he some Amorphic master in the sky? Or is he the same thing that makes you want to be a scientist? A wife? Isn't god part of that? In other words- If you are a slave to god- aren't you a slave to your own life as well? For god is the depth of it, isn't he?

So I believe that getting out of Egypt wasn't the end of slavery for anybody really. It was just the beginning of deeper form of slavery, a more passionate and truthful one.

 

user profile image
Peninnah Rachel
26.04.2016 8:11
From a theological perspective
we are committed to and slaves of the Lord only
–enslavement to any other is tyranny injustice false etc
and must be cast off
–Shulchan Aruch:
Eved Hashem, sheh Hashem ba lev livadoe chofshee.
Commitment does not necessarily impede freedom..
It is personal and subjective.
I don't feel my freedom is lost through my commitment.

In contrast, my freedom is enhanced and increase
as a result of my commitments as a Jew, as a scientist as a wife etc.

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